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The Twelve Blogs of Christmas: Eight
The Vicar FAQ.
First, just a reminder that you have until midnight my time on Wednesday to enter the quiz. I suspect we haven't yet heard from the winner. Hint: you know those labels at the bottom of every blog post, describing the content? The quiz blog post has labels like that.
A week or so ago we also (I now realise I didn't mention it at that time) went along to Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds Live at the 02. I thought that was about as good as such a performance could be, with loads of animations now filling in the action, and Jason Donovan being especially good as the Artilleryman. The ending, though, as always, irks me on an SFnal basis. So we've flashed forward to the modern day, and NASA are sending a mission to Mars... and they're surprised to find green flashes and a new Martian threat? Did the British newspapers of the time really downplay the invasion that much? 'Trouble in the Home Counties, Rail Timetable Severely Disrupted'?
Oh, and the last link to the BBC Archive went down well, so here's their latest one, a collection of interviews with stars from the golden age of Hollywood. (This one's only available in the UK, sorry.)
So, today's blog subject is, in some ways, for my own use. In that, every time I mention what my wife's up to, or where she is in her studies, I seem to get it wrong. I've often said we should have a Frequently Asked Questions about the business of becoming a priest, so here it is. The answers are hers. I hope it's also of interest to anyone of an SFnal bent, who's got an interest in an extraordinary world that's right at the heart of British history and culture. Or anyone who wants to know what all those words bandied about (usually randomly) in fantasy movies and games mean (Halo, I'm looking at you).
Hello, Caroline. I've noticed, being married to you for all these years, that you want to be a priest. And, honestly, I really know bugger all about all that. So I thought I'd correct this shameful omission and give myself a page of answers I can look up when I forget. For a start, which church are we talking about?
'The Church of England, otherwise known as the Anglican Church. I'm an Anglican.'
How do you become a vicar?
'After talking to you local vicar, and convincing them that you feel a calling, they'll send you to a D.D.O. -'
What's that?
'A Diocesan Director of Ordinands. Diocesan: works in a diocese. Ordinand: someone who's in the process of training . Diocese: an area consisting of several parishes which is presided over by a bishop.'
There are going to be a lot of terms like that, aren't there?
'Which is what always gets you confused. You used the Ordinand System in our Doctor Who audio as somewhere the Nimon once devastated, didn't you?'
Yes, I recall. So what does this D.D.O. do?
'After a year or so (three in my case), working out whether or not you're up for this, talking to your spouse -'
Oh yes, I remember. Your D.D.O. was terrifying, like Yoda in the body of Miss Marple.
'... they send you to the Bishop, for an interview. The two of them decide whether or not to send you to a B.A.P. -'
What is -?
'- A Bishop's Advisory Panel, a series of tests, presentations and interviews which takes three days. Assuming you pass, and get a successful Criminal Records Bureau check from the police, and a successful health check from your doctor, and check out as financially viable and not in debt, then you get recommended for training. You then choose which theological college (seminary is a Roman Catholic term) you want to go to and apply.'
How do you choose?
'It depends on what flavour of church you prefer, from "high" church (ceremony, candles, incense, dressing up) to "low" or "evangelical" church (preaching, praise songs, informal worship) or something on the vast spectrum in between.'
So where does your college, Cuddesdon, fit into that?
'It's officially non-partisan, it takes everybody. It's traditionally liberal, somewhere in the middle.'
So what happens when you apply?
'You pass an interview, then, depending on whether you're under thirty or have a theology degree, or have a lot of experience, you're put on a course lasting one to three years. If you don't have a theology degree, you'll get one; if you do, you'll get a higher one.'
So what happens when you've passed the course?
'You're ordained as a deacon.'
And a deacon is-?
'It's the first level of ordination. In the early church, deacons brought matters that needed attention to the notice of priests, and took care of the sick. These days, pastoral care is still a big part of a deacon's work. As a deacon, you can baptise people, and conduct funerals and weddings.'
I thought you needed to be a vicar to do that?
'No, you don't. And, you know, anyone can baptise.'
What?! Don't confuse me!
'Before becoming a deacon, before your course ends, you'll have applied for a title post, a position as a curate in a parish.'
And a curate is-?
'It's a job title. It's an apprentice vicar, the final stage of training, outside of college, and in a parish. You're working for a vicar.'
So at the end of your course, you're ordained as a deacon and take up a post as a curate?
'Exactly. Why could you never remember this?'
It's complicated! So how long are you a curate for?
'Usually, three years. After the first of those years, you're usually ordained as a priest.'
And a priest is-?
'It's the second rank of ordination. You can bless people and conduct Holy Communion. (The bit with the bread and wine.)'
So for the last two years of your posting, you're a curate and a priest?
'Right. At the end of your curacy, you apply for other jobs.'
You apply, rather than being sent?
'You apply by looking at job adverts looking for vicars in the back of The Church Times. You then go for job interviews at parishes. If the parish council and/or churchwardens like you, you're given the job of being their vicar.'
And a vicar is-?
'It's a job title, a priest with oversight over a parish. Not all priests are vicars, but all vicars are priests. As a priest, you could apply for jobs other than being a vicar, like being a chaplain in a prison or hospital.'
And a dean is-? A canon is-? A rector is-?
'These are all job titles, priests who've taken up various jobs in cathedrals or dioceses. Historically, a rector was someone who had the right to the income from a piece of church land, while a vicar was just hired to run the church. These days, some vicars are just called rectors because of local tradition.
And a bishop is-?
'The third rank of ordination. Bishops can confirm people, and ordain the lower two ranks.'
And an archbishop is-?
'Someone in charge of a lot of bishops. There are just two of them in England, in Canterbury and York.'
And the Pope is- ?
'-In charge of an entirely different denomination, not the Church of England.'
And a robber button is-?
'An old Blackadder joke.'
So where are you now in this process?
'I've applied for my curacy, at Saint Mary's, Amersham, and been accepted. I'm finishing my course now, and will hopefully be ordained as a deacon in July.'
So you'll be marrying, burying and baptising people from July?
'I could, it depends if they need me to.'
And your vicar there will be?
'The Rev. Tim Harper.'
The one off Midsomer Murders?
'He's been in the show several times. They use his buildings to film in, and he gets to play a vicar.'
Will you be solving murders, or committing them? Like my Mum thinks you will be?
'Definitely not committing them, but when it comes to solving them, you never know.'
What does 'Reverend' mean? Will you be that?
'It's just an honourific, like Mr or Mrs, I'll be that as soon as I'm ordained as a deacon. This changes with your level of seniority or job. Deans and bishops get different titles.'
What do we call you? 'Your grace' or something like that?
'In some churches you'll get called "father", "mother" or "reverend". But it's not important.'
Do I have to call you that?
'Oh yes.'
But -
'I'm joking.'
Oh. Okay. Can I ask you some questions that people have sent in?
'People have sent in questions?'
Yes. Mags Halliday asks: 'Are you hoping for a Dibley or a Rev posting?'
'I haven't seen Rev, but Amersham's not unlike Dibley.'
Heather Lisy asks: 'How long is there between going to seminary and becoming vicar of one's own church?'
'At a minimum, five years from the start of the course.'
Ian Boothby asks: 'Is it true that to the vicars go the spoils?'
'I wish it were true. It depends on your parish, but you're usually paid around £20 thou a year.'
Tony Lee asks: 'Will you be able to exorcise demons like Sam does in Supernatural?'
'Theoretically, but there's a specialist in each diocese you can go to for that kind of thing. I tend not to believe in ghosts and demons, but there's enough weirdness in the world that I try to keep an open mind.'
Except about Bigfoot.
'You bring Bigfoot into everything.'
He also asks: 'Do you get a Vicar Cave and a Vicarmobile?'
'I get a house, known as a vicarage when one is a vicar, but I don't know of any vicar who's managed to get a company car.'
Mark Coale asks: 'Was your appointment genderwise a big deal or fairly commonplace now in the UK?'
'It's fairly commonplace these days, but can be trickier depending on which diocese you come from. Some bishops are still pretty anti female clergy. Certainly at my college, the gender split is 50/50.'
He also asks: 'How often do you hear jokes about The Vicar of Dibley?'
'ALL THE TIME. Can be a useful jokey conversation opener though.'
Are you going to wear your dog collar to parties and conventions?
'Dog collar meaning "clerical collar" - that white strip around the collar of my shirt, right? It's a choice on my part rather than a dictum from the church. Depends on the party. Clerical collars don't go all that well with cocktail dresses. But definitely to conventions. Although I suspect people will think I'm cosplaying.'
Can you marry or bless friends who ask you?
'I can't bless people or things until I'm a priest. I can marry friends, but it will depend on us getting permission from the local vicar whose church you want to get married in, and of course it would have to happen in a church.'
And that's all I can think of, though feel free to ask questions of your own. I hope the above isn't taken as 'oh, look at how clever my wife is'. It's an outreach on my part, an attempt to get past the most alienating thing about any specialist job: the terminology. It's also all the questions we get asked all the time. Except the ones about Dan Brown.
Tomorrow, I'll be presenting your fan fiction! I'm very much looking forward to that. Until then, Cheerio!
Labels:
Sinead and the Dawnbreakers,
Sophie Ellis Bextor,
Vicar FAQ
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Thank you Caroline (and Paul), and many congrats on the Amersham job!
In all honesty, I've worked in religious publishing for 15 years and I don't think I've actually known exactly how this works before now. I need to bookmark this page. You should do an extended interview which I could turn into a bluffers' guide to priesthood ...
So glad you posted this! It's something I'm hugely curious about. There's just something fascinating to me about the hows and whys of people choosing to devote their lives in this way. :)
Also, it's especially rocksauce that Caroline gets to BE a vicar. I'm waiting for the Catholic Church to catch up! When I was a little girl I DESPERATELY wanted to be an "alterboy", because they got to ring the bells and carry the chalice and help wave the incense around, but I couldn't because I was a girl. When I was about 14 or 15-ish, when I was JUST too old to be an "altarboy" without it being weird, they started letting girls do it, and they were now called "altarservers." I was SO mad. :)
When I was older, I thought it would be cool to get to be a deacon, because deacons can get married and still have a deep relationship to the church, as they get to do pretty much everything except give Holy Communion. But women can't do that either in Catholicism.
My only option would've been to be a nun. And I'm sorry, but f#@k no. I completely respect the women who choose that path, but it is NOT the path for me. Much like being a nuclear physicist is not the path for me.
So that's what my Dad went through (he was ordained late in life at 50). I never asked him. (I did however manage to ruin his ordination by being born the same day.)
Congratualtions on the posting, Caroline! And thanks Paul, all that was very interesting :)
Jo
Thank you for sharing this! I'm an Episcopalian in the American Episcopal Church (the one with a woman in charge), and some of our terms are different (for example, here people go from deacon to priest, although they still do the work of a curate, just without the title).
Good luck and God Bless, Caroline!
Thanks, all! Just sat around and answered questions, so definitely Paul's hard work, not mine. Hope you enjoy it though!
Thanks to Paul and Caroline (good luck) from someone on the Dawkins/Gervais side of the fence.
Teresa, this may sound weird, but I was an altarboy as a young teen and seeing "behind the scenes" is what put me on the path toward atheism.
@Teresa: Oh! I was convinced the women I've seen distributing communion in RC churches were deacons!
I got to serve Mass when I was a kid (I'm older than you judging by your photo), but the priest who did this in my parish in Italy was later removed to some place where he couldn't do such harm to Holy Tradition any more... :-(
Out of simply-ignorant, not-born-in-England curiosity (rather than nagging about how much vicars get paid for doing what I imagine is an obscene amount of work, which these sorts of /lived/ jobs tend to entail), does the 20,000-ish a year have to cover various things like fees for living at a vicarage, the utilities for that, the car one uses to get around the parish (and presumably to pop to the shops), and vestments/work clothes? Are things like that considered perks of the job?
Oh hi Caroline! The answer, of course, is a black-lace turtleneck dress ;-)
@x_los Basically, while you get the house free, along with any necessary work on its upkeep (broken guttering etc.), everything else you pay for. So utility bills, car, petrol, personal vestments etc. come out of your stipend. Often a given church will own its own vestments and expect you to use them, but that's not a given, and some priests own a full 'set' of their own vestments. By set, I mean vestments to cover all occasions and church seasons. More about all that if such info is requested!
@sciamanna Good idea! But I've always been a spaghetti strap kind of dress wearer...
@ Caroline Oh, interesting! Thanks!
llAnother lifetime ago, my dad was a Lutheran minister and i grew up in the parsonage(a fancy name for church owned housing). Used my father's liturgy books to baptize all my dolls and officiate at Ken & Barbie's wedding.
Thanks to you and Carolyn for answering my question. But does this mean Paul will go as the 'tart' at the Tart & Vicar parties? Do people in England still throw those kind of parties?
PS. Hope you have a Merry Christmas.
@Mark Coale - oh, no! I mean, you were probably headed in that direction anyway, just because it's what you believed, but I just remember loving being a part of the church community, and it's a shame you didn't feel that. I was a lector and a leader of song for years, and spent many a Sunday behind the altar gossiping with our organist and the deacons! :) It was a lot of fun. Though I'm not as much of a Catholic as I used to be, I still think of it with fondness.
@sciamanna - nope! Laypeople can hand out communion in the Catholic church as Eucharistic Ministers. My parents were both EMs. You have to take a special class or something, but anyone can do it, and it's another way to serve. You can't, obviously, consecrate the host, though. Only a priest can do that.
And one day women will be allowed to be priests in the Catholic church. I'm sure of it. It just always takes them a couple of centuries to get with the times. My great-great granddaughters will get to have parishes. :)
What a lovely response, thanks all. Caroline might well be up for that book, David! Ter: no, go on, be a nun! It'd look good on you! Paul: we won't try and duplicate that, I think. Mark: well, I respect that. But I'd say that ceremony is ceremony, all magic is stage magic, bread and wine are bread and wine. The numinous lies outside the universe and in human minds. (Which almost rhymed, probably best it didn't.) Heather: we've actually done a vicars and tarts party, but I chickened out and came as a monk. I blessed Gareth Roberts, but it didn't take.
The fact that I would look good as a nun is precisely the reason why I shouldn't be one, is the thing. ;)
A lovely blog. One sees vicars every day (well, almost) and it is easy to forget the hard work and dedication which has gone into being an Ordained Minister. Not for nothing is it referred to as a Vocation rather than a job.
To Paul & Caroline and all your other readers: may you have a Happy and Holy Christmas. Peace with you.
Thanks for the FAQ and subsequent answers, Caroline. Congrats on the new job again.
Congrats on the new job, Caroline, and happy viccing.
Do you get to wear those gorgeously, elaborately embroidered vestments like you see in church tours?
I rather enjoyed the FAQs. I'm a left footer who used to go out with a vicar and I'm in awe of anyone who can cut it in either the RC or CofE Churches. All the best for your ministry, Caroline!
Thanks, all. I'll ask Caroline to pop back in and answer. Cheers.
Hullo again!
@Nightsky well... Yes, in the end, and depending on the Church. Deacons don't wear vestments (chasubles are priests only), but if and when I reach that level of ordination I hope to be wearing some lovely embroidered stuff. However, not all churches go in for vestments, so in some cases that wouldn't be on the cards.
In other news, I'm getting my mum to make my stole for ordination, and hopefully other bits and bobs as time goes on. Personally I'm all in favour of a bit of dressing up. :)
That's very interesting! Now I have some jargon to toss at the people from Wescott and Ridley, who I bump into every so often.
Or course I myself am completely opposed to the idea of women priests, though that's nothing to do with the 'women' bit -- women ministers are wonderful.
The one question I would have for Caroline is (and it may be a bit personal), is it an issue having a spouse with such, um, shall we say, heterodox beliefs? I can imagine that the D.D.O. interview (see, I'm getting the lingo!) was an ordeal; was it actually an issue, as regards testing your calling? And is it a matter of concern when it comes to being called to a church (is that how it works in the CoE? You're called to a church and preach with a view, etc? Or is there some other process, when there's a bishop involved?)? The minister and spouse do often (though not always) come as a 'package', as it were.
(Also, I guess, is it the case in the CoE that your calling is only confirmed when you're called by a church, or does a curacy confirm your calling too? (I confess that I have no idea if an assistant ministership confirms a calling; I suppose I should know, but I've been in England so long and they're so rare over here in this increasingly heathen country that I don't).
(Just this weekend another person asked me if I'd considered the ministry. I replied, as I usually do, that I'm sure I could preach both kinds of sermons...)
Actually on second, light-of-day thoughts that is a ridiculously personal question, isn't it? Sorry. It just does fascinate me -- I'm sure there are clergy with atheist spouses too and it all works out fine, but I must admit to being fascinated by how such a dynamic would work.
I'm just a nosey so-and-so who can't help wondering how other people's minds work, really.
@SK Don't worry, I don't think those are nosy questions at all! OK, so Paul's beliefs and their impact: as long as Paul was both well informed of the changes that would come with being an ordained person's spouse, and was supportive, my DDO didn't mind what he believed. I've a good clergy friend whose wife is an atheist, and that's all fine. Congregation attitudes can vary, as can vicars', but I made sure my new boss was happy with Paul being his own person before I accepted the curacy.
Re: calling. This is complicated. My sense of calling has been tested throughout this process - most explicitly at my BAP, where one of the 3 assessors is focused solely on judging candidates' sense of vocation. There is an idea of discerning a sense of calling to a particular role (chaplain, precentor, teacher) or individual church, but at least in my case with my curacy, that wasn't as concrete as my sense of vocation to ministry in general. When it came to my curacy it was enough for me that the challenges and strengths of the parish excited me, that I felt drawn to their worship and community, and that I felt I could get on with and work with the vicar. The bishop's role was first to suggest the post to me initially, and secondly to approve my decision and that of the parish that I should go there.
Hope that all makes sense! Interesting that people have been suggesting the ministry to you - some of my colleagues have mentioned that as being the first prompt that set them off on this path. It's worth thinking and praying about, just to explore the idea, so don't dismiss it out of hand!
Also not sure what you meant re: women priests - any chance you could elaborate?
Oh, good, glad I didn't offend. that is interesting. I'm sure it will be an exciting journey, anyway. (I've been wondering about Mr C's beliefs ever since I read Something More -- before that he seemed to fall into the fairly standard New-Adventures
wibbly-neo-pagan-take-it-or-leave-it
Jungian-archetype-esque mould, but after that it became clear there was something more complex going on, and the other article in this series on his relationship to the church was itself interesting and enlightening PS bet he loves being talked about in the third person).
Regarding women priests: I'm fairly much on the Reformed wing of protestantism (though with -- whisper it -- Arminian sympathies), so the idea of 'priests' doesn't sit well with me -- we already have one of those, we don't need any more.
I remember reading a C.S. Lewis essay where he came out against 'priestesses' in the church, on the grounds that such were too close -- symbolically -- to the priestesses of pagan religions, and therefore not acceptably Christian. I agreed with him, but wished he'd taken it farther: the Jews were set apart from pagan religions by not having priestesses, but one of the ways we Christians are even more distinct is that we neither have, nor need, earthly priests (male or female) to mediate between us and God.
So as long as we're clear that the person standing up at the front is not a priest but a minister of word and sacrament, I think both Lewis's actual objection to women priests, and the objection he should have been making to priesthood in general, is answered -- and so I have no problem with a woman doing the job (I am unconvinced that the New Testament passages on women in church are meant to be theology, rather than that they address specific questions of church order in specific situations). Provided we're clear what the job is, ie, teaching and proper administration of the sacraments (all both of them) and not any kind of mediatory role.
The calling question is a complicated one and I asked based on conversations with the Westminsterites (with whom I understandably have more contact than the Anglicans). Though I might have misunderstood them and, in the classic journalistic disclaimer, any misunderstandings are entirely mine.
I think (though I could be wrong) that whereas based on your answers your ordination and postings are independent (I get the impression that being ordained to the deaconate is the conclusion of your pre-ordination training and not explicitly connected to the curacy?), in the URC (of which I am a member now I'm in England) you can only be ordained to a post of minister to a particular congregation (and I assume it's similar in other Reformed churches, though I never found out in that much detail before I came here). Once you've completed your training (at the point when I get the impression and Anglican would be ordained as a deacon?) you've, well, completed your training, but you can't be ordained until called by a congregation. So your calling isn't 'confirmed' -- you aren't actually a minister -- until a congregation calls you.
Of course once you're ordained you are a minister and you don't need to be re-ordained every time you're installed at a new church (just like the first time you become an elder you're ordained and appointed, but if you serve subsequent terms you're just re-appointed, not re-ordained -- though I don't know how or if that transfers between congregations).
With regards to the ministry and me -- let's just say that I definitely am not ready yet, but there may come a time when the oven dings. Or there may not. But there may. Or not.
Did that work? The website said it was too long. Everyone's a critic.
Though actually, on reflection, another way of looking at it would be, wouldn't it, that what sets Christianity apart from other religions (or at least those that weren't based on Christianity, like Mormonism, Islam, Wicca and Neopaganism) is not that we don't have priests, but that everyone is a priest. After all, the category abolished by the priesthood of all believers is not the clergy but the laity.
So the best response to 'can women in the church be priests?' is surely 'aren't they already?'